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How clean is clean?
[Times photos: Cherie Diez]
By CHRIS SHERMAN, Times Staff Writer
In the weeks since a hepatitis outbreak caused one restaurant in Polk County to close and a restaurant worker in Pinellas became ill, diners' questions about the law and food safety have been persistent. Although most of the 176 cases of hepatitis A recorded in Polk County were traced to exposure at home or through drug use, six people were believed to have become infected at a restaurant. We put some questions, major and minor, about restaurant dining to those who worry about them daily. Two of our experts are on what we might call the clean team for Florida restaurants. Lewis Kroll, owner of Cleaners Closet of St. Petersburg, has been in the kitchens of Florida restaurants selling dishwashers, soap, floor cleaners, first aid kits, sanitizers and more for years. For Geoff Luebkemann, restaurant cleanliness is his sworn duty. As head of the division of hotels and restaurants in the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation, he oversees restaurant inspections across the state. He once worked in restaurants and dines out constantly. For a view from inside the kitchen, we posed questions to Kathleen McDole, the general manager overseeing 75 employees at the 150-seat Friendly Fisherman on Madeira Beach. She's also president of the Pinellas chapter of the Florida Restaurant Association and a fastidious sort who wipes off bathroom doorknobs before turning them. Not surprisingly, their answers, edited for clarity and length, paint an idealized picture, one real life doesn't always meet. Still, they describe the kind of cleanliness diners should seek.
Question: At the restaurant where I eat, no one wears a hairnet. Isn't that wrong? Kroll: A hat does the same thing. They have to wear (some kind of head covering) in the kitchen. I'm seeing more restaurant (workers) wearing baseball caps or chef's hats. Luebkemann: The individual has to provide protection. That can be a hat, hairnet or short hair. It's not a hard-and-fast rule. There's no critical food-borne illness risk.
McDole: I require all my men to wear hats. They all wear baseball caps. The only problem is with the guys who are bald. They think (being bald) is a fashion statement.
Question: I saw that someone making my sandwich had a cold and sneezed. Should I worry about that? Kroll: Absolutely. In the last couple of weeks, I have installed hand-sanitizer jells (dispensers) everywhere. They kill 98 percent of bacteria. They're waterless and washless. The new ones have aloe in them. Luebkemann: The managers should be aware and maybe (send home) any employee that is symptomatic. The employee should know that if he is not healthy, he shouldn't work. And any time workers cough or sneeze, they should wash their hands. McDole: If anyone's got anything contagious they should be sent home.
Question: The restroom looks dirty. Is that indicative of something more? Kroll: It's something the manager should be made aware of. Most guests will leave upset without telling. Most of the time when the bathrooms are dirty, the operator hasn't been able to be in there and see it. Luebkemann: That's general sanitation. If an inspector were to observe a restroom that was dirty, he would issue a violation. There are restrooms that look dingy, but that is not a health problem. However, if (the operators) are not paying attention to the parts the public sees, that doesn't bode well. For health purposes, they need to have hot and cold water running under pressure and the right things for good hand washing. Hand washing is incredibly important. It can prevent a number of food-borne illnesses. It's not just soap and sanitizer but the friction that is critical in hand washing. Restrooms not used by employees do not have to have hot water. McDole: I would report (a dirty restroom) to a manager. I feel like (customers) judge a restaurant by the cleanliness of the restroom.
Question: Dirty dishes are left on the table. Is that a health hazard? Kroll: No. The table just needs to be bused. Luebkemann: That's not an ideal business practice but not a health concern unless the dishes were there overnight. If they're just not quickly busing tables, that would not be a violation. McDole: When someone's finished eating, the server should clear the plates. The dishes should be cleared from the table before a patron receives the bill.
Question: I go to this little place for salad at lunch. The same person who makes the salad then takes my money and makes change. Is that right? Kroll: (It's okay) as long as that person washes his hands or uses a sanitizer after giving you change and before making the next salad. Someone did a study on what was dirtier, money or silverware, and the greater source of contamination was the dollar bills. Luebkemann: That's a no-no. Each task a food preparer does has to be separated. McDole: If he hasn't washed his hands after he takes the money, there's a problem.
Question: What regulations are hot dog vendors under? Are they supposed to wash their hands between making change and making dogs? Kroll: Yes. They (should) wash or sanitize their hands or change gloves before they start making a new hot dog. Luebkemann: They should wash their hands between any task that could contaminate them, such as cash handling or cleaning utensils, prior to touching ready-to-eat food. We distinguish bare-hand contact and use of utensils. You can use deli tissue to pick up the bun and tongs to get the hot dog. Utensils are a great barrier. (Editor's note: Fast-food outlets often separate tasks so that cashiers who touch money do not come into contact with ready-to-eat food, only wrapped or bagged food.) McDole: Any time you're handling ready-to-eat food, you're supposed to have a hand-washing procedure and show that to (Business and Professional Regulations inspectors) when they show up.
Question: How do good restaurants clean their kitchens? Kroll: They use some type of degreaser cleaners and some type of sanitizing rinse. You should look to see if they have the little red buckets that say sanitizer. They should have special buckets and spray bottles used only for (sanitizing tables in the dining room). Bleach is the least expensive, but it's harsh on the skin. And a nice black shirt will wind up with white spots. I like ammonia because it kills (bacteria) better. Luebkemann: When I was in the business, we'd clean as we go. It was our goal to keep the place looking as good as it was when we came in. Volume can throw you off, but food-contact surfaces need to be clean and free of debris all the time. Employees must wash their hands constantly. It's an ongoing process. You don't work all day and clean at the end of the day. Anything that touches food needs to be sanitized; a prep table or cutting board needs to be treated with a bleach solution or quaternary ammonia. McDole: Some restaurants require cooks to clean; some hire help. My cooks clean everything down to the floor, and then a cleaning crew comes in and does the floor. (Editor's note: In well-run restaurants, tables, high chairs and other things that come into contact with customers and food are washed and sanitized with bacteria-killing solutions.)
Question: I see restaurants in Pasco have signs posted showing their grades of cleanliness, A, B and C. How come the signs aren't in all Florida restaurants? Kroll: Good question. I don't have an answer. I happen to like having it out front. Luebkemann: The Food and Drug Administration does not recommend grading. It could create a false sense of security, because the whole situation could change in a day. We'd like to have an educated and aware person in charge rather than have our public rely on a grade. Our inspection document is required to be on the premises. We note our observation and violations. Consumers should know that they can get this. We require three visits a year now. McDole: I wouldn't worry about it myself. The way things are going, the fear factor (among diners) is so great that posting grades might be a good thing. It's just that the (inspectors) are so stretched, I don't know if they could do it. I don't know how much the public or restaurateurs know (about the requirement to have an inspection report). Ours is readily available. We keep it on a clipboard outside our office. No one has ever asked to see it. They must assume it's safe.
Question: What's the most dangerous health problem: bugs, dirty place, dirty staff, poor refrigeration, spoiled food, undercooked food? Kroll: All of the above; one leads to another. Bad refrigeration and spoiled food, those are going to be part of a dirty kitchen. Restaurant guests should feel like they could ask to see the kitchen. . . . I'm not saying to ask a restaurant that has 250 people sitting down at 7:30 on Friday night. Luebkemann: All those things. What an operator can do (to correct them) requires training. Our best defenses are awareness and education. (Restaurant managers and employees) have to know personal hygiene, and we have to have those people on guard. Whatever the regulatory framework, you can't be there 24 hours. McDole: I would say cross-contamination, and that could be from a customer, a customer himself eating with his fingers. Or things brought in from outside. Someone sets a box down on the floor because it's too heavy. Someone else picks the box up and puts it on the counter. Question: If I see a roach on the floor of a restaurant, should I be afraid? A mouse? Kroll: In most cases, those bugs came in the back door when the restaurant got something delivered. I wouldn't run away from them. I'd tell (the restaurant) to get their exterminator in. Vermin, however, are a big thing. I wouldn't eat there. That would be an item of concern. Luebkemann: That depends on where you are. I operated in a mall, and all your neighbors could be a source. We live in Florida. Florida has roaches. Rodents? Absolutely. (Editor's note: Rodents can carry disease and indicate long-standing problems.) There are some issues that will get an establishment closed right then and there; a vermin presence is in that category. McDole: That depends on what kind (of roach). The big ones with wings, the palmetto bugs, they can just fly in, but the little ones would worry me a little. A mouse? I'd be concerned. I think that has happened to me once in 25 years, and we're near the underside of the bridge. But that was on the ground floor, not in the dining room.
Question: Are food workers required to wear gloves? Kroll: Everybody wears gloves. They just don't change them often enough. Say you're cutting chicken and you have gloves on. You go around the corner of the kitchen to get something and you take your gloves off, throw them away, unload a truck full of groceries, wash your hands, put some gel on or new gloves. So you don't go from one raw food to cooked food or salad or something dirty. Luebkemann: They're not (required). If a food establishment is going to have bare-handed contact, they're required to have an alternative (form of sanitizing). A glove is considered a utensil. One of the drawbacks is that wearing gloves is like not wearing gloves; if you touch something that's contaminated, the glove is contaminated, just like your hands would be. McDole: The state law says you need to wear gloves or have a hand-washing program. Question: Are restaurant workers tested for hepatitis or HIV? How often? Luebkemann: No. There was a time back in the '60s that our employees were required to get a health card. Not now. We depend on operators to watch for good health. McDole: They're not required to. If employees look ill, you ask what's the matter, and if they are sick, you send them home. (Editor's note: Although public health officials say that one-time vaccinations or tests provide only temporary security, the owners of John's Restaurant in Bartow, which was temporarily closed because of the hepatitis outbreak, now requires all employees to be vaccinated and to take drug tests in order to restore customer confidence.)
Question: What if someone gets a cut in the kitchen? Kroll: Absolutely dangerous. There's a proper way to clean up a spill, to kill any virus. You wrap the cut, put a cot or stocking on it. Blood is a definite issue. We give (restaurateurs) a blood-borne spill pathogen kit. Luebkemann: It depends on the severity. You can't have bare-handed contact with food and nicked-up hands. For (the) most severe cuts, the employee should probably not be working until a barrier can be established with finger cots. McDole: If they get a cut, they have to come upstairs immediately. They have to have a Band-Aid and a covering over that. They have to have two coverings. Then the glove.
Question: I see restaurant workers smoking behind the restaurant; will that affect my food? Kroll: It looks tacky but creates no health problem that I know of. However, no smoking is allowed where food is being prepared or cooked. Luebkemann: Not if they wash their hands when they return to their stations. McDole: No, it shouldn't, because anyone coming back to work after a break has to wash their hands.
Question: Are restaurant kitchens safer than home kitchens? Kroll: Probably, because you don't think of wiping down your kitchen with disinfectant, or mopping up every time you spill something. Luebkemann: Probably. We do know that the majority of food-borne illness is in the home. The ability (for harm in a restaurant kitchen) is largely the same except for its capacity to do volume. There's not the urgency in the home there is in a commercial kitchen. At Thanksgiving (homes) have food sitting out of (safe) temperature for six to eight hours. We could not allow that. If it's been out of temperature for four hours, it's discarded. McDole: I would say absolutely (restaurant kitchens are safer), simply because of the training. We're more aware of the different diseases and contaminants.
Question: What causes more food poisoning: chicken, meat, shellfish, or lettuce and vegetables? Kroll: It could be any of them. Luebkemann: We could put all that (under) "extremely hazardous." The ability to allow and support the growth of bacteria depends on the water content. That's the danger with raw foods like oysters; there's no kill step (such as cooking) in the preparation. People who are immuno-compromised can be exposed to bacteria. McDole: The last time I asked somebody, believe it or not, it was tomatoes. (Chefs sometimes) use that part of the stem that can still have fertilizer contaminants.
Question: Are open kitchens a good thing? Kroll: Absolutely. It's a real confidence builder to see the kitchen. Look at Steak 'n Shake. Ma and Pa Belt started it in Normal, Ill., in 1934 with their slogan "In Sight It Must Be Right." (The slogan referred to the grinding of meat in view of customers.) Luebkemann: That's a business practice, but if you're going to display your food preparation area, you know you have to keep it clean. McDole: Oh, I think so. Your cooks have to be visibly cleaner. There's no hand-to-mouth problem. I'm sure they know people are watching them.
Question: Do new cleaning products help? Kroll: Yes. We've got electronic eye dispensers for instant hand wash and plenty of tools to bring to the table to help someone in a restaurant, or in their own home if they want, to disinfect their counters or get the mold that grows around tile. There's stuff you just spray on today. There are also cutting boards and sponges and brushes all color-coded: yellow for chicken, blue for dairy and so on. Luebkemann: Not really. The stuff we use to sanitize has been around for years, like bleach and ammonia and washing hands. Equipment may be more efficient, and there are some new materials, like ceramic knives. But it's not a high-tech business. A lot of things we learned in kindergarten. Overarching principles have not changed in eons. McDole: There are some things out there. The handless faucets, for instance. You have all kinds of things to make sure your employees wash. We put sanitizer in all of our work stations (kitchen, bar, service bar). A public bathroom is not a hand-washing station. (Employees) should wash their hands again when they come back into their kitchen. It's the only way the supervisor can be sure. Question: Do corporate kitchens have tougher standards than independent restaurants? Kroll: If you find a restaurant that gives cleanliness second ranking, it's a huge responsibility and liability for them. The chain has the financial resources to have the people to write the training handbooks, but that's one of the things that our company does for all our restaurateurs. We have the people who can teach their employees. Luebkemann: It all comes down to what's happening day by day and shift by shift. The corporations do have the resources, but it all comes down to how much the manager on duty cares. I would say there isn't a large difference between chains and independents. McDole: I would say yes. . . . Hooters has hired someone just to go around and train their people; an outfit like Red Lobster does the same thing. Your regular Mom and Pops aren't always aware of the law. (After the hepatitis outbreak) the Florida Restaurant Association went en masse to Polk and personally trained every restaurant there, going from one place to the next. The chains, they're really rabid about procedures. They have people to make sure it gets done.
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