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Letter to the editor

Two women, two ways to scale the corporate ladder

A feminist labor leader and an entrepreneur write about their paths to the top.

By Kris Hundley, Times Staff Writer
Published October 25, 2007

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What's the key to success in the workplace? Being nice or hanging tough?

Two authors who will be appearing at the St. Petersburg Times Festival of Reading propose dramatically different paths to the top.

Dawna Stone, a St. Petersburg entrepreneur and winner of the TV show The Apprentice: Martha Stewart, believes you don't have to bust heads to win big in business. She has written Winning Nice: How to Succeed in Business and Life Without Waging War.

Ellen Bravo, former director of 9to5, National Association of Working Women, and a professor of women's studies at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, is more direct. Her book's title: Taking on the Big Boys: Why Feminism Is Good for Families, Business and the Nation.

In their answers to a series of questions, the two authors showed how their attitudes toward the workplace diverge - and occasionally intersect.

If someone called you a feminist, would you consider it a compliment or criticism?

BRAVO: Absolutely a compliment. All feminism means is social, political and economic equality between the genders. I can't imagine who would object. It means fully valuing women and work associated with women in order to free everyone's potential.

I started teaching women's studies 35 years ago, and in the first class students still say the same thing they said then: Feminists are seen as hairy, humorless and man-hating. But it takes only one class to win them over. They figure out it's not about beating up on men, but looking at how women are devalued and how that hurts men, as well as children and families. Fixing it is not a favor to women, but a better way to do business and run the country, as well as families.

STONE: I wouldn't think twice either way. I don't consider myself a feminist. I've always thought that every individual, if they work extremely hard, can get ahead. It doesn't matter if you're male or female. . . . I truly do believe it's how you act and how you carry yourself that determines whether you get ahead or not.

How would you react to being called "nice"?

BRAVO: I am nice. But sometimes you have to raise hell. I don't just want to break the glass ceiling, I want to redesign the building from the ground up to benefit both women and men. Sometimes you have to be nice. But sometimes you have to raise your voices to be heard. The broadest range of tactics and strategies is most helpful.

STONE: I definitely think it's a compliment. There's a misconception that if you're nice, you're weak. But you can be nice and be extremely successful, powerful and a tough negotiator. It's all in the way you handle yourself.

A great example is Steve Forbes president of Forbes Inc.. When I went to see him, the security guard in the lobby told me someone would come down to get me, and I assumed it would be an assistant. Then Steve Forbes comes down the stairs and greets me and walks me up to his office. That was pretty amazing to me.

You find out you're being paid less than the guy doing the same job at the next desk. What would you do?

BRAVO: First, you don't always win if you stand up for yourself, but you never win if you don't. Second, the best way to get what you need for yourself is to work with others on behalf of everyone. So if you find out you're making less, check to see if others are too. Together you can figure out how to approach the company to make your case.

STONE: I'd ask for more. Lots of times people may be making less money, but maybe there's another reason than that you're female. You've got to look at the whole picture. A lot of people are afraid to ask for more, but I believe it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

Unions - who needs them?

BRAVO: Women in unions make 34 percent more than women who aren't unionized. And they're more likely to have pensions, health insurance and sick leave. When people say women make less because they don't negotiate, I say most women have no opportunity to negotiate over pay. Unions absolutely help women.

STONE: I'm not even sure I've ever thought about unions. I've never worked in a place that had them. Maybe that's one question I don't answer.

Why do so few women get rich - except through their spouses?

BRAVO: Wealth and asset building are related to pay and job tenure. Women are more likely to be underpaid and have some, though modest, breaks in service that disproportionately affect their long-term pay. When you're penalized 5, 10, 15 percent per kid, that really adds up. Pay inequity alone costs women from $500,000 to $2-million over a lifetime. You want wealth? There it is.

STONE: I know some very successful women. But I think we make choices between staying in the work force and taking time off to be with our kids and run the household. . . . If you decided to put your career on hold while your kids were growing up, you'd be a little behind somebody who hadn't taken five years off. That's part of the reason I wanted to start my own business, so I'd have the flexibility.

Kris Hundley can be reached at (727) 892-2996 or khundley@sptimes.com.

[Last modified October 24, 2007, 19:49:13]